Talk:Soong Ching-ling

Soong's membership in the Chinese Communist Party

I believe she joined the communist party much earlier than 1984. Whoever wrote this page should revise this topic more profoundly. I very discontent about this mistake and hope someone will fix it immediately.

This is a Wiki. You should feel free to fix it yourself. --Jiang 05:41, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It's not a mistake. Here are several references, and there are dozens of others.....

http://www.terra.es/personal2/monolith/00women2.htm

http://taipeitimes.com/news/2001/06/19/story/0000090600

Soong was not a Communist Party member for most of her life, and it seems likely that she was unaware that she had been made a member. In Chinese terms Soong was considered a member of the united front allied with the Communist Party.--User:Roadrunner

Even when she was given a membership, it was purely honorary position. Not to mention that she couldn't be a "real" member, belonging to the different political organization.

According to the Israel Epstein biography (Woman in world history: Life and times of Soong Ching Ling, Beijing: New World Press, 1993, p. 617), she had long requested membership in the party and was aware that she had received it. At the time of her death, Soong did not belong to any other political organization. Rgr09 (talk) 03:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

What does "honorary" membership mean??? Are you normally paid to be a member???--Jack Upland (talk) 08:55, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Page move

"Soong Ching-ling" is by far the most common form of her name (20000 on google) while "Rosamond Soong" is seldom used (134 on google). moved page back to original location--Jiang 10:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Soong Ching-ling and education.

From my understanding, Soong Ching-ling was not able to have children. There are many kindergardens in China named after her. I am not sure of the connection.

Also, it is possible to visit a former residence of Soong Ching-Ling in Shanghai. It is located on Huahai Zhong Rd near the intersection of Wanping Rd.

Last Paragraph Needs Revision

Although Ching-ling remained in mainland China while Soong May-ling, or Madame Chiang Kai-shek, her younger sister fled to Taiwan with her husband Chiang Kai-shek, both are today quite beloved and memorized by the public in the mainland for their unique charismas and contribution. However, both of them lived long life to witness the marginalization of their respective political beliefs and themselves in China's history, and the conflict between them, with their era, is gone.

Removed text as it is very poorly written and pure speculation. Prince Roy (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Asia's first female head of state?!

Soong Ching-ling was not the first in Asia, The first was a woman born in the qing dynasty who ruled the republic of Tannu Tuva. --82.134.154.25 (talk) 17:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

That is true. Her name was Khertek Anchimaa-Toka. I'll simply remove the reference to Soong Ching-Ling being first. -- User:Natsymir

Maybe you could say: Soong Ching-ling is the first known non-traditional head of state of an independent country in Asia? 1. Known: There may be heads of state in the distant past that we don't know about (or who we don't know were women!) 2. Non-traditional: Non-hereditary doesn't fit because she was somewhat hereditary, like many modern Asian female leaders (Park, Bhutto, Gandhi, the Sri Lankans etc). Non-feudal, perhaps? Except that the use of the term feudal is highly debatable. Traditional is best because some traditional ways of choosing rulers are not strictly hereditary or feudal in the European sense. 3.Independent because Tannu Tuva was not independent.

By the way, Queen Victoria as Empress of India could also be described as an Asian head of state, but she was hereditary (traditional) and India wasn't independent. I'm sure there are other examples like that.

I think I've captured it, but someone might be able to do better.

I will put it in the intro because I think Soong should get recognition.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:24, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand the meaning of the edit. Perhaps you should add the word 'female' in there somewhere. Even then it remains odd. Rgr09 (talk) 03:25, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, female was meant to be in there! The point is to recognise the significant of a female head of state. I've reworked it further.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC) However, some other editor thinks that she can't be a head of state because the role was "honorary". I don't accept this argument. Many countries have a head of state which is separate from the head of government. They are no less head of state.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no point to mention Asia's first head of state. You could argue to death. What is Asia and what is a head of state? What about Cixi? This is a very unclear question. Just don't mention it and there are no problems. --2.245.139.3 (talk) 19:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The Cultural Revolution and Song Qing Ling

I recall reading on this article, a few years back, a short paragraph regarding how Song was "struggled against" during the Cultural revolution. I also recall reading about how her sister in Taiwan actually tried to visit her or to have her "emigrated" to Taiwan? Who removed that stuff? If there are proper citations for that, please would someone bring that back? Children of the dragon (talk) 10:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Soong's college

For about the third time the college was edited from Wesleyan to Wellesley. This is wrong; Soong attended Wesleyan College in Macon, Georgia, not Wellesley College in Massachusetts. Every biographical sources plainly says so, including all the works cited in this article. Do not change things like this unless you have a good source and make sure you cite the source in a standard research format. Rgr09 (talk) 02:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Soong and the "Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang."

The article states that "Soong reconciled with the KMT during the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945). She did not join the party, but rather was part of the united front heading up the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang." This is not correct. The Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang was formed by disaffected members of the KMT in Hong Hong in 1948. It was not a war-time political party. In addition, although the RC-KMT did elect her "honorary chair" after its formation, Soong did not attend any of this group's meetings, or participate in any of its activities. (See Song Qingling nian pu [Guangzhou: Guangdong renmin chubanshe, 2006] under the years 1948 and 1949). Article revised accordingly. Rgr09 (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

The claim that Soong Ching-ling "helped form the Revolutionary Committee of the Kuomintang" has again been added to the article, but as the work stated above states, she was not involved with this group. For an English source, see Epstein's biography of Soong (cited in the article), p. 463: "she, while acclaiming the group, never functioned within it." If there is another source that contradicts this, please cite. Otherwise I will delete this sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgr09 (talk • contribs) 05:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Soong's official positions

Soong held several positions in the PRC government after 1949, but these are not described clearly in the article. The position of "Co-Chairman of the Republic" is a particular problem. The Soong biography gives this title but it actually links to List of Presidents of the People's Republic of China; the title "Co-Chairman of the Republic" seems to be a non-existent figment.

Wikipedia's List of Presidents of the People's Republic of China does claim that Soong was head of state from 1968 to 1972; probably based on this, the article claims that Soong "became the first female President of the People's Republic of China: from 1968 to 1972 she served jointly with Dong Biwu as head of state". However, this is not mentioned in any biographies I have found of her, it is not mentioned in the English Wikipedia article on Dong Biwu, it is not mentioned in the Chinese Wikipedia articles on Soong or Dong, and it is not mentioned in the Chinese government website on the position of "presidency of the People's Republic of China." I will get back on this and delete or edit as appropriate when I have more information. Rgr09 (talk) 03:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Note that website specifically refers to "men" and therefore logically isn't relevant. See the discussion below.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:07, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Soong's official positions II

Continuing the discussion from above, there is great confusion in Wikipedia about Soong's official titles and positions. This is partly because the phrase head of state is sometimes taken to be some sort of official title. It is not a title, and does not appear in any of the various PRC constitutions. There was, however, a title called 中华人民共和国主席 in the 1954 constitution, which literally translated means simply "chairman of the People's Republic of China". The 1954 Constitution also creates a "vice-chairman of the People's Republic of China." From 1954 to 1959, Mao Zedong was PRC "chairman" and Liu Shaoqi was PRC "vice chairman". In 1959, Mao stepped down as PRC "chairman" and Liu became chairman. In turn, Soong and Dong Biwu, a CCP 'elder', then became the PRC "vice-chairmen." These positions and their occupants remained the same until Liu was stripped of all his positions and expelled from the CCP in October 1968. The position of PRC "chairman" remained vacant until 1975, when a new consitution was adopted that removed the position. The position was not restored until the 1982 Constitution.

Apparently Soong was removed or resigned as PRC "Vice-chairman" in 1972, but I have no references for this yet. This is the extent of her tenure in this position. Her title was PRC "vice-chair", never PRC "chairman". She was PRC "vice-chair" from 1959 to most likely 1972. After 1975 this position ceased to exist, until it was revived after her death. Was she ever described as "acting PRC chair"? I have never seen such a description except in Wikipedia. The PRC website cited above does not mention her as one of the holders of this position. Chinese newspapers from the time do not do this, foreign news reports from the time do not do this, why does Wikipedia? I suggest that all articles on this subject be revised to reflect actual history.

There are two additional points also worth noting. First, from 1949 to 1954, the PRC was governed by the Central People's Government Council (CPGC). Mao was Council chairman, and there were six vice-chairs, including Soong. The article equates this with the PRC "Vice-chairman", mentioned above, but this is simply wrong; the position of PRC "Vice-chairman" did not come into existence until 1954. From 1954 to 1959, Soong held other positions which are ignored in the box of Soong's positions. My reference for all this is Klein, Donald W., and Anne B. Clark. Biographic Dictionary of Chinese Communism, 1921-1965. Harvard East Asian Series, 57. 2 vols. Cambridge, MA: Harvard UP, 1971; Sung Ch'ing-ling and Appendix 1.

The article then says "Being a vice-chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress since 1954, she was elected acting executive chairman of it on 30 November 1976 replacing Zhu De, who died on 6 July." This is also incorrect. Soong was one of 14 vice-chairmen of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress from 1954 to 1959. She stepped down from this position in 1959 when she became PRC "Vice-chairman". She was re-elected or re-appointed to the position in 1975, at which time she was one of 22 vice-chairmen. At this time Zhu De was NPC standing committee chair. Zhu died on 6 July 1976. Although the Chinese Wikipedia has Soong as "acting NPC standing committee chair" from this date until 1978, I have seen no evidence of this; on the other hand, the article's claim that she was "elected" acting chair of the NPC standing committee on Nov 11 1976 is also wrong; she simply acted as chair on that one day. At the first plenum of the Fifth NPC in Feb. 1978, she was thus "re-elected as "vice-chair of the NPC standing committee", which would not make sense if she had already become chair.

This is not the end of fixing this article, but hopefully people will try to redo this and the many other articles that are related to it. As I noted, the title "Co-Chairman of the Republic" is indeed a non-existent figment of some editor's imagination. In addition, Soong was never elected PRC "Chairman", nor did she ever serve as PRC "Chairman" at any meeting of any government organ. I don't believe you can even find a newspaper account of any of her public activities that ever says she was "acting" PRC "chairman"; as for calling her president, it is an anachronism; the position that passes for "president" now was not created until 1982. Rgr09 (talk) 09:06, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

(1) I'm not aware that "head of state" is an official title anywhere. It is almost a theoretical term that is used to describe the monarchs of Britain, Japan, Thailand etc and the Presidents of various European countries etc.

(2) I can vouch for the fact that outside her house in Beijing there is a sign which in English describes her as "President".

(3) Semantically in English there is no fundamental difference between "chairman" and "president". I don't know about the Chinese, and the article really sheds no light on this.

(4) I don't understand what "honorary" means in this context. Again, I don't know what the Chinese says. It seems in fact to dishonour her. Would the position be described as "honorary" if she was a man? Does it matter if she was paid? Of course, it was a honour for her to be appointed, but does that need to qualify her position???

(5) I don't think out-of-date Western sources should be the decisive factor in this issue.

(6) Given the above, I think it is quite reasonable to describe her as "president" and "head of state" because she fulfilled that role, in the rather chaotic context of China at that time, as much as any man.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:48, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Soong's official positions III: info box problems

The positions in the info boxes need to be changed to reflect revisions in the article and discussions on the talk page. The original info box was headed "Head of State." This is not a position or title in any document I can find associated with the PRC's various constitutions, nor can I find any other people in Wikipedia where the info box gives them such identifications. I have therefore changed the info-box heading to "Honorary Chairman of the People's Republic of China" which was a title especially created for Soong about two weeks before her death, as described in the article. Since this title was unique to Soong, it makes no sense to say that she was preceded or succeeded by anyone in this position. Yet the info box says that she was both preceded and succeeded by Ye Jianying "as Chairman of the NPCSC." In fact, Ye Jianying was not only chairman of the NPCSC before and after the ten or twelve days that Soong was "Honorary Chairman," he was also chairman of the NPCSC during this period. To say that he succeeded or preceded Soong simply reflects one editor's theory that "Honorary Chairman" carried legal authority; in effect, by creating this title, the NPC amended the constitution and delegated the authority of head of state to Soong, who was frequently comatose during this period and made no public appearances or statements or actions at all from May 8 until her death on May 29, removing it from Ye Jianying, until it was automatically restored to him at Soong's death. This elaborate system of justification is repeated throughout the info box, ignoring the titles and positions that Soong actually held from 1949 onwards to trace her putative relation with the concept of "head of state," granting her titles that the editor identifies with this concept, but that Soong is never mentioned as holding in any documented source. I'm going to go ahead and fix this. If there are disagreements, please discuss here so that this can be resolved. Rgr09 (talk) 07:03, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the info box really works in a fluid situation like this in any case.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Must have sources for changing basic biographical data

Soong was Sun Yat-sen's second wife. This is clearly stated in all biographies of Sun that I have read (4) and in all biographies of Soong that I have read (3). If you have a different source put it up, otherwise this is just vandalism. Likewise, Soong was never a member of the Kuomintang Revolutionary Committee; this claim is sourced in the article; if you have a different source, put it up before you change this. As for the Comintern, it was not a political party, or even a membership organization, and cannot be listed as a political affiliation. Rgr09 (talk) 02:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Honorary President

Soong's final title was Honorary President of the PRC. The article however has been changed repeatedly to remove the word "Honorary". There is a sourced description of how and when she received the title in the article text. Here is a link to a website with a picture of the entrance to Soong's home in Beijing. It clearly shows the words "honorary president of the prc" in both English and Chinese. You may think she deserved the title President without the word Honorary in front of it, but that's her official title. Stop changing it. Rgr09 (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. My mistake.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

spelling of Song/Soong

The family name Soong was spelled with two o's. You cannot change this everywhere. For example, Sterling Seagrave's biography was called The Soong Dynasty, not The Sòng Dynasty. Spelling it this way is flat out inaccurate, and will mean people can't find the book in a library catalogue. You also changed the spelling in the file names of pictures, so that the pictures no longer display properly.

In addition, you are using the fourth tone mark ò, this is a specialized type of transcription not used in ordinary writing, and not visible on older browsers. It is also inconsistent with all the other pinyin spellings on the page, none of which use tone markings.

Finally, now the article title is inconsistent with the content of the article. If you want to make this change, you must propose moving the page; you can do that here on the talk page, but there must be consensus on the change before it is done. You are welcome to discuss a change in the page name and content here, but until there is consensus, everything goes back to the way it was. Rgr09 (talk) 14:58, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

In addition to Rgr09's convincing reasons, she and her four siblings, all of whom were highly fluent in English and two of whom were Harvard grads, spelled it "Soong."ch (talk) 22:39, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The individuals involved came along before the adoption of pinyin and regardless of whether they used the Wade-Giles romanisation or one of their own invention, "Soong" is the WP:COMMONNAME here.  Philg88 ^♦talk 06:03, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Political party affiliations

The infobox listed Soong as a member of the Kuomintang until 1947, the Revolutionary Committee of the Chinese Kuomintang from 1948 to 1981, the Chinese Communist Party in 1981, reflecting her deathbed acceptance into the party, and the Communist International from 1933–1943. The Communist International was dissolved by Stalin in 1943, which explains the final date, but there is no source for Soong's affiliation with the Comintern in 1933. In addition, the Comintern was not a political party, and her affiliation with it, whatever the source, should not be listed as such.

As noted above on the talk page, although Soong was elected as honorary chair of the Revolutionary Committee of the Chinese Kuomintang, a splinter group of the Kuomintang that remains as one of the eight United Front organizations in China today, she was elected against her wishes and did not participate in any of the RCKMT organizations or activities, nor is her affiliation with RCKMT listed in any sources I have seen. Sources are necessary for these claims. Rgr09 (talk) 08:36, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Stateswoman

Statesman is defined as "usually a politician, diplomat or other notable public figure who has had a long and respected career at the national or international level." According to the 2nd paragraph of the lead, Soong's career was long, spanning several decades, she led and represented the nation at both the national and international level, and she was respected enough to be made an honorary chairman of the PRC right before her death. Therefore, I feel it is appropriate to label her a "stateswoman" in the lead sentence and have reverted "politician" to "stateswoman." Phlar (talk) 11:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Your rationale for designating Soong a stateswoman is the weakest of all the figures you have so far edited with this change. Since she was not admitted to the Communist party until her deathbed, Soong never held a position in which she had decision making authority. Her few appearances internationally were formal and without serious political negotiations or major actions. Her election to 'honorary state chair' of the PRC was recognition of her contributions to the CPC generally and to the injustices done her during the Cultural Revolution specifically, and while it may qualify her as a patriot, it had little to do with the qualities of a statesman. Politician is possible since she did hold 'political' posts, but even these were of a largely ceremonial nature.

To claim that anyone holding a position such as the President or Vice-president of the PRC should be designated a 'statesman' conflicts with general wikipedia practice. Which U.S. president is designated a statesman? Roosevelt is one; this was due to his important influence on world affairs during World War II. Rgr09 (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I didn't add "stateswoman," I reverted another user's edit from "stateswoman" to "politician." Stateswoman was added by yet another user (Indy beetle) in this July 25th edit. I agree with the summary for that edit that "she was important in her own right, not simply by her marriage to Sun Yat-sen." I also see your point that "stateswoman" isn't the perfect label for Soong. And I think "politician" is even less appropriate (hence my reversion), but I'm not sure what other label would fit better. Any suggestions? Phlar (talk) 13:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I saw many first and second generation high-ranking CPC or pro-CPC leader are described as statesman. And some pro-democracy CPC leader (such as Zhao Ziyang) and high-ranking leader of ROC (or Kuomingtang) are described as politican. It's wrong. I think political figure is a neutral opinion. Her sister Soong May-ling was an important person of ROC. Soong May-ling's career was also long, she also led and represented the nation at both the national and international level during the WWII.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.83.69.156 (talk) 14:02, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~).

I would be OK with "political figure" for Soong Ching-ling. Why did you change it to "politician" again?

I also feel that May-ling was a stateswoman. "Political figure" was fine, too. Why did you change it to "politician" on her page? If you feel that it's wrong to describe those other KMT and CCP leaders as politicians, why are you adding "politician" to the Soongs' pages? Why not use another term? Phlar (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Before implementing any changes, an exchange of opinions is a helpful courtesy, hopefully followed by a pause for thought. I'll offer a suggestion and wait a day or two before I do any more editing on this article. Soong played two roles in China; an important political activist in the Republican era, strongly opposed to the governing KMT (and having close, but largely covert ties with the CPC); then after the founding of the PRC, a leading member of the non-Communist United Front (somewhat unwillingly, since she did apply for CPC membership in the 1950s, but was rejected). Rather than put a single label on her, I suggest a longer, but more accurate phrase or sentence, e.g. "Soong was an important political activist in the Republican era and a leading member of the non-Communist United Front after the founding of the PRC." If this is too wordy, "political figure" is vague, but possibly acceptable. Rgr09 (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Your proposal works for me: "Soong was an important political activist in the Republican era and a leading member of the non-Communist United Front after the founding of the PRC." Waiting a day or two to allow others to express their views sounds like a good idea. Phlar (talk) 17:43, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

After further consideration, I think that your sentence isn't quite right for the first sentence of the lead. She needs to be identified as Chinese right away, and concepts like "Republican" and "CPC" would also need explanation. I'm leaning towards "Soong Ching-ling (27 January 1893 – 29 May 1981) was a Chinese political figure" as a compromise. Phlar (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2017 (UTC) Phlar (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

"Rosamond" or "Rosamonde"?

Is her Christian name spelled "Rosamond" or "Rosamonde"? Both appear in the article, and search results are yielded on the internet with both names. Could someone please resolve this? NipponGinko (talk) 03:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

She was named after Rosamonde (Paul 2011). Epstein (1995) says she adopted the name "Rosamonde" (p.1, if I remember correctly), while most other sources indicate "Rosamond". Free ori (talk) 02:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)